fuels containing MTBE. When this evil additive first came out there were many vehicles that suffered fuel leaks due to it's solvent nature. Pumps, hoses, injectors etc were all prone to fail. (I) Am amazed that the press didn't play it up for the typical fear factor--there's a saying in the news biz "If it bleeds, it leads" which is indicative of their mindset. Perhaps the long arm of the oil industry squashed these reports? Regardless, I know from first hand experience in the industry of the countless cars that have been damaged or even destroyed directly due to MTBE. Be careful! -ANT P.S. Ethanol and Methanol are corrosive too, but they tend to gunk things up as they absorb moisture and create crusty bits to form throughout the fuel system. Stainless steel and Viton rubber is the way to go in either case. ========================================================== These warnings about the type of rubber line you use should be taken very seriously. I had a 65 Monaco a few years back and I watched the new rubber lines deteriorate in a matter of months. Since then I run the FI hose on all of my "oldies but goodies" and have put thousands of miles on them with no signs of deterioration at all. I also use the FI style clamps. They are not original but they don't cut into the line and look nicer that the standard screw type. Generally, I run as little rubber line as possible. My local dragstrip won't allow you pass tech if you have more than 12 inches total of rubber line. On the Avanti the only hose I run is about 6 inches to the fuel pump, another 6 from the tank and about 3 inches on the return line. I contemplated solid line to the fuel pump but I think flexibility is necessary here because the main line is anchored to the frame and the movement of the engine might cause it to loosen or crack at the pump. Before the trip to Charlotte I'm going to install a shut off valve where the drain is under the car, just in case. Ernie R2 R5388 ================================================ MTBE poisoned a number of wells , about a 19 block area. the spill was a about 3 gallons/shell station. .I was going to open a restruant at the time, passed it by. Roland G. ===================================================== The insidious thing about MTBE (which the politicians either didn't want to hear or were to addled to understand) is that it actually seeks water. Ethanol/Methanol is miscibe with water, it absorbs it. Once again the politicians used political means to answer a technical problem. They apparently think the public as incapable of understanding this stuff so they chose the easy way out. Actually they may be right, if the public was stupid enough to have elected these nimrods in the first place then they MUST be wacky! -ANT ========================== ========================= Fuels containing Alcohol Alcohol Name Formula Methyl alcohol (methanol) CH3OH Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) CH3CH2OH n - propyl alcohol CH3CH2CH2OH Isopropyl alcohol (propanol -2) CH3CHOHCH3 n-butyl alcohol (butanol -1) CH3(CH2)2CH2OH butyl alcohol (butanol -2) CH3CH2CHOHCH3 n-hexyl alcohol (hexanol-1) CH3(CH2)4CH2OH n-heptyl alcohol (heptanol-1) CH3(CH2)5CH2OH n-octyl alcohol (octanol-1) CH3(CH2)6CH2OH ethylene glycol CH2OHCH2OH glycerol CH2OHCHOHCH2OH ------------------------------------------------------ The "Methanol" is the BAD additive -- that MTBE is the WORST additive, neither of the "alcohol" will POISON our groundwater supply! The first time I encountered MTBE at a Shell station in Louisville, WITHOUT a "vapor recovery system", I actually got SICK and have had trouble breathing while putting in $10.00 of gas. And I don't have any respiratory problems! --------------------------------------- EVERYONE's MISSING THE POINT! Rubber that's 20-40 years old needs to be REPLACED to prevent a deterioration failure -- the alcohol gas additives MAY be a contributing factor, but it's the AGE of the rubber tubing that's the culprit. Come on guys, that rubber hosing is a generic replacement -- don't need Studebaker NOS rubber hoses, which is probably is as OLD as the rubber hoses being replaced in the gas line. -------------------------------------- Have been using 10% ethanol blend (92 octane) in the R1 for over 2 years with no problems other than its propensity to percolate with the under the hood heat .Moved the fuel line closer to the firewall and put braided steel line with teflon lining and threaded fittings in place of rubber hose and no problems. With a fibreglass car putting better fuel line hoses in should be a no brainer regardless of whether we are using ethanol blend or conventional unleaded. Brian R2640 --------------------------------------- Just a few comments to your missive which I just read: 1. I would NEVER EVER use Copper as a fuel line. Much to soft and to easy to damage plus it melts easily in the temps of a fuel induced fire. Only use Steel fuel lines or do what the rodders do and use Stainless Steel lines. 2. On an Avanti there is only a few feet of "rubber" fuel line. From the tank to right in front of the rear wheel, and in the engine compartment to and from the fuel pump and carb. If you have a sealed fuel filler cap (one with out a vent) you then also have a return line back to the tank most of which is steel but with "rubber" in the previously mentioned locations. 3. My comments are specifically directed to Ethanol as an additive in order to reduce the use of MTBE which is now suspected to be a cancer causing agent. MTBE gets into the human body via potable water. MTBE is an additive that was developed and approved by the Calif. Air Resources Board (CARB) in order to meet Calif. air pollution goals. This was in the early 70's and MTBE has been in steady and wide use since. (Just another Government Dictate to help yea which is turning out to be a piss poor decision.) Turns out, MTBE is almost imposible to remove in modern high volume water processing operations. The only way to completely remove it is to use a process called reverse osmosis which is fine for labs and reactors and the like, but is way to expensive and low volume for potable water. The cheap alternative to MBTB is Ethanol made from corn and sugar beets. The downside to Ethanol is slightly less performance and gas mileage although in modern ECM engines, those built with second generation closed loop technology, the performance and mileage changes will be hardly, if at all, noticeable. The real bummer though is for us old car guys. Ethanol attacks rubber fuel lines.(In 1983 I hadba new carb'ed V6 Mercury Marquis. At 8,000 miles, when it was 6 mo. old, the fuel system had to be completely replaced because of the steady use of the new 10% Ethanol based fuel dictated by the DFL Party led Socialist RepubliD of Minnesota. That cost was eaten by Ford under warranty. The cost to repair my 68 442 Cutlass Convert. was paid from my pocket. (Cost me several hundred with new gas tank float / sender / fuel pump, filters and rebuilt carb to replace gaskets, needle jets and the wrecked accelerator pump) 4. Methanol, the active agent in HEET and in gas called Gasohol, is not nearly as harmful to rubber lines but this is not the product that is being government dictated for Conn. and New York State with other states to follow. 5.Now, ALL cars with fuel injection have high pressure "non-rubber" lines thus Ethanol(or Methanol/Gasohol) present zero line problems. Most cars built since 1985/6 have fuel injection so no problems expected. It's only older carb'ed cars with rubber lines and rubber in the fuel pumps and accelerator pumps that have a problem. 6. Governments and the Environmentalists don't give a crap if you 15 plus year old car develops fuel system problems from Ethanol gas. They view any 15 or more year old car as a "Environmental and Public Safety Hazard/Disaster" since ALL of them don't meet todays emissions and occupant safety standards. They believe that Ethanol gas will actually help rid the roads of older cars which they view as "Good Public Policy and a Politically Correct Decision". In fact, I listened to Chuck Schummer and Hillary Clinton, the two NY Senators, say as much on C-SPAN a few weeks ago. (The Corn & Beet Growers Asssociations has promised them substantial contributions for their support of Ethanol fuel. This is a completely new source of free dollars for each of them. How do I know this you ask? Well,I manage 3,700 acres of family owned corn growing farm land in central and south eastern South Dakota. I am a card carrying dues paid up member of the Corn Growers Association). Thus, don't expect any "Public Service Anouncements" telling you to replace your "rubber" fuel lines. Governments would rather have your "old" car die so it will be sent to the scrap heap sooner. Thus, in summary, it is my personal recommendation that ALL my Avanti friends with Carb'ed cars, replace your rubber lines with FI rated line and if your fuel pump is of the older type with rubber parts, (found mainly on Stude 289's) get a modern non-rubber rebuild kit or have it rebuild by Ted Harbit or Dave T'Bow. For Chev engines, a new fuel pump is readly available from NAPA for less than $20. And for Mike Shutko, I guess you just go and "Do Your Thing" --- Copper lines and all ---- I just hope your car doesn't burn --- cause as they say: "An Avanti Is A Terrible Thing To Waste" ------------------------------------------- I learned of it's requirement for NY and Conn. off the alt.stude news group where the fellows said that only Ethanol laced gas would be available after Jan. 1, 2004. Many states in the midwest have had Ethanol laced gas for over 20 years thus the problems with rubber fuel lines were addressed in those states years ago. Still the product continued to cause problems in antique cars and hotrods, farm vehicles, marine equipment, snowmobiles etc. for years. Now, many of those states (MN, SD, ND, WI are the ones I know of), allow one pump at stations to be Ethanol Free. This legislative action was spearheaded by the NHRA which gathered the support of Antique Car Clubs, Boat Owners and the like. In fact, the MN Chapter of the NHRA has published a list of several hundred stations in the upper midwest with an Ethanol free pump. I have not heard of Ethanol being required in FL yet, but for sure it's use is going to rapidly spread across the country in order to stem the use of MTBE and it's danger to humans and potable water. From my personal experience, my cars just started running like crap as the fuel filter gets cloged with rubber particles. Eventually they just quit from fuel starvation, cloged carb needle valves and damaged accelerator pumps. On Stude framed Avanti's it is not hard to replace the rubber portions of the fuel lines. The back seat has to be removed to gain access to the top of the tank. This is a simple process. The rubber line on the bottom of the tank can be easily accessed while the car is on a lift, and the rubber lines in the engine compartment can be easily accessed from the top. The main problem is that Stude framed Avanti's have a gravity fed fuel system. There is a pepcock in the steel fuel line about mid cabin, passenger side. This is so you can drain the tank. (My two Chev motored cars has the pepcock just in from the hog at about the middle of the passenger door.) I would recommend that you run the tank almost dry before you start to drain via the pepcock. The most troublesome line for gas spillage is the one directly draining from the bottom of the tank. The rest are relatively easy to replace with minimum spillage. (Oh, you will also spill some at the fuel pump and a bit from the carb comnnections but only drops when compared to the bottom of the tank gravity feed.) ------------------- A A A A A A A A A Ethanol fuel will force the "junk" floating around the bottom of your gas tank and sent the "crap" through the fuel line -- if you NEVER used this "gasohol" before your fuel filter will CLOG UP and your Avanti will STOP DEAD, as if your ran out of gas -- you have been forewarned, be prepared you "ole' Boy Scout"! :-) Mike Shutko -----------------