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Rich
Champion Member
USA
41 Posts |
 Posted - 08/30/2009 : 1:38:50 PM
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Yesterday was the LeMay Museum's 32nd Annual Open House. After WW II,
Harold LeMay started collecting junk. That effort eventually lead to
one of Washington State's largest garbage collection companies serving
Tacoma and many other cities. Harold loved to collect cars and when he
died in 2001, owned over 3,400 cars. Very interesting story (https://www.lemaymuseum.org/page.php?id=65).
In a few months, construction will start on a world class auto museum
to be located on the south parking lot of the Tacoma Dome. In early
2000, a local Dentist donated to the Museum (for a huge tax write off),
what he considered to be the very first and very last Avantis ever sold
by The Studebaker Corp (Gary Johnson arranged the purchase of both cars
for the Dentist and wrote about it in the AOAI mag). I was asked to
give an assessment of them. Much has changed since then as a Board of
Directors now controls the cars and things move agonizingly slow. Both
Avantis have sat in a storage building since donated and have never
been displayed. The initial drive was to completely restore #1001 and
make it one of the signature cars for the new Museum. In talking with
Doug LeMay yesterday, we were wondering what people's reactions would
be if #1001 were displayed in its current condition. I'd like to
solicit input from the members of this forum to help answer the
question: would you display Avanti #1001 in it's present condition or
would you favor a complete restoration before being displayed?
Thanks for your input.
Rich
Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78 |
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s1b
Cruiser Member
150 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 1:59:09 PM
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Is there any history behind the paint? If so leave it the way it is. Sometimes it cool to see the roads cars have traveled.
That metalflake paint seems to have held up pretty good through time.
Orlando FLA
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StudeRich
Commander Member
USA
6510 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 2:09:29 PM
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Richard, since that current mismatched paint design and color seems to
have nothing to do with the car's history as the number ONE Avanti,
other than being very ugly and a poor choice of color for a Red
Interior car, or a Gold W/Fawn or Black Interior car, I say definitely make the Car the correct Avanti color as it was originally, and restore it as new. 
Is
that a '64 front clip with square headlight buckets and a Group 24
rectangular Battery in there? That might be a problem if it had a
collision repair and was updated. 
If it was originally an R2 as the air cleaner would indicate, that needs completing.
This
may be the Gold Avanti R2 4 speed that was flown around the Country in
the flying box car for the Dealer Introductions, I was at the Los
Angeles showing, pretty impressive!
StudeRich |
Edited by - StudeRich on 08/30/2009 2:23:37 PM |
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Dick Clemens
Regal Member
USA
435 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 2:28:33 PM
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This car needs to be brought back to original condition. As the first Avanti, it should be displayed as originally built.
studedick from the lower Ozarks |
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laughinlark
Regal Member
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 2:29:23 PM
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I'd think that being the first one made, it deserves to be restored. I'm with StudeRich on this one.
Gordon
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JeffDeWitt
Regal Member
USA
494 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 2:31:07 PM
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If the facilities allow it then it could be even more interesting to
the general public if the car was put on display as is, and then
restored in public (somewhat like they are doing with the HL Hunley)
I bet most people have NO idea what all is involved with restoring a car.
Jeff DeWitt
https://carolinastudes.net
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JBOYLE
Commander Member
USA
2211 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 3:06:11 PM
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I really hope they restore it. (I'll donate a few bucks...)
It's a hisoric car...and it's clearly not a question of un-doing originality if it were treated to a proper restoration.
I
don't have much trust in a lot of the general public...I'd hate to
think if some...even a minority...left the museum thinking that's the
way Studebaker made them.
63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)
Washington State |
Edited by - JBOYLE on 08/30/2009 11:06:42 PM |
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JGK 940
Regal Member
USA
449 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 3:26:17 PM
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Restore.
***PLEASE***
Keoni Dibelka / HiloFoto
In Hawai'i; on Hawai'i; on the Windward Side
If da salt air never chew 'em up bumbye da lava will... |
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bonehead007
Regal Member
481 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 3:59:53 PM
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Suggest to them to donate it to the Studebaker Museum. They'd take better care of it..
New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together |
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bige
Golden Hawk Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 4:05:04 PM
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Restore...
Get
a TV show to do a series on the restoration...they do it for everything
else, tanks, airplanes, Toyotas! Maybe Dave T or Jon Meyer would like a
little advertizing with a camera crew following the progress?
ErnieR
On its way to a 15.097 Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Spring 2006. |
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s1b
Cruiser Member
150 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 4:32:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
what he considered to be the very first and very last Avantis ever sold
by The Studebaker Corp (Gary Johnson arranged the purchase of both cars
for the Dentist and wrote about it in the AOAI mag).
Everybody
so worried about restoring this Avanti. I understand it is a piece of
history for us Stude people, but it doesn't say first ever built period.
Yet nobody will give this a chance. There is more history in this prototype. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393045&highlight=studebaker
I understand it needs alot!!! but I also know someone here can/able to take on the job. This is real Studebaker history!
Orlando FLA
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s1b
Cruiser Member
150 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 4:34:18 PM
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Point is there may be a bigger story behind the paint to be added on top of it's Studebaker history.
Orlando FLA
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Mr.Biggs
Commander Member
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 4:49:39 PM
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It needs to be restored. Whether I personally like the current state or
not (and I don't), it needs to reflect kindly on the Studebaker legacy.
It would be different if it were of the ilk of the Muppets car, but
this is just plain ugly. If it's current state has some appeal to it,
the leave the flat tire and rusty rims to give it the full effect.
1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door
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bill van alstyne
Champion Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 4:57:18 PM
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Can the history be traced back to verify anything of historic value to
it's present condition? If not then an accurate restoration makes the
most sense. |
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bige
Golden Hawk Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 5:06:48 PM
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I think the story behind the paint was an acid flashback
Raymond Loewy's Avanti with his personal touches would be something you
would leave alone. From the looks of this it wasn't even a quality
custom job with the door jams left the original white.
I have
to think the purchase of this car for a collection was motivated by its
serial number and the desire to preserve history and not the uniqueness
of its metallic paint job.
That body you're referring to is
certainly interesting but it may never have actually been a complete
car. Looks like they might have been experimenting with glass roofs
like the Ford's had. There were probably a lot of false start ideas
that never got built and then tossed in the 'yard'.
How would
you restore it anyway not knowing what the intent was to begin with?
Without some documentation showing a complete car you would be creating
your own and not reviving anything Studebaker did?
Let's say the
Mona Lisa was stolen years ago and someone put a mustache and beard on
her. And for years it traveled the world secretly changing hands among
some of the most famous people in the world with each change of
ownership creating another unique story to add to its past. Then it's
discovered in a basement by someone who knows that it's the missing
Mona Lisa. Years of intrigue surround the famous "Bearded Lady" as it
was known among the select few who knw her secret.
Do you leave it with the mustache and beard or do you record its checkered past and restore it to its original beauty?
With
a paint job that ugly there's a story that can be displayed along with
the refinished car. And I can't imagine anyone who looks at the before
compared with the after questioning why it wasn't left metallic green
and yellow with orange seats.
ErnieR
quote:
Originally posted by s1b
Point is there may be a bigger story behind the paint to be added on top of it's Studebaker history.
Orlando FLA
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toyman
Cruiser Member
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 5:57:58 PM
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It NEEDS to be restored!
toyman |
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s1b
Cruiser Member
150 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 5:59:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bill van alstyne
Can
the history be traced back to verify anything of historic value to it's
present condition? If not then an accurate restoration makes the most
sense.
I agree.
Orlando FLA
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s1b
Cruiser Member
150 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 6:18:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bige
That
body you're referring to is certainly interesting but it may never have
actually been a complete car. Looks like they might have been
experimenting with glass roofs like the Ford's had. There were probably
a lot of false start ideas that never got built and then tossed in the
'yard'.
How would you restore it anyway not knowing what the
intent was to begin with? Without some documentation showing a complete
car you would be creating your own and not reviving anything Studebaker
did?
quote:
Originally posted by s1b
Point is there may be a bigger story behind the paint to be added on top of it's Studebaker history.
Orlando FLA
Well
there is remains of a wiring harness and throttle linkage in the car.
So there is a big chance and more than likely it was powered
Orlando FLA
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royvaldez
Regal Member
USA
405 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 6:20:45 PM
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| Please restore!!!!!! |
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studefan
Starlight Member
95 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 6:30:37 PM
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| Really no option. It must be restored. |
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Bob Caser
Champion Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 7:27:55 PM
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This Avanti should be restored as to how it left the factory.
R 1001 was white with a orange interior.
In
the mid 80's I attempted to buy this car thru Gary Johnson, I went as
far as purchasing a complete NOS orange interior for the car and many
other parts. The owner could never commit to a dollar figure or the
real desire to sell the car.
I sold the interior to Dave Kinney,who
chased R1001 after I had given up. Gary had several other significant
Avanti's in his storage at the time.
Bob Caser
mrbobinc |
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Thomas63R2
Regal Member
USA
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 8:29:32 PM
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Given that the custom work appears low budget, not well thought out,
and incomplete, I cannot imagine any special "history" other than maybe
a previous owners drug history. To display it in its current state will
only reinforce any oddball connotations about the Avanti, and to a
lesser degree Studebakers. Avantis and Studebakers do not need any
additional negative reinforcement. The most likely reaction from John Q
Public upon seeing it in its current state will be to curl their lip
and say eeewwww!
What I would suggest is a proper restoration
AND a little photo display showing how it was found. Only one person in
the whole world loved that custom work, the rest of the world will
better enjoy the story of how the car was celebrated when new - then
went to the brink in the psychedelic era - and then came full circle
back to how it was celebrated when new. So i vote for a full
restoration with a little homage paid to its journey through the years.
Thomas |
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edpjr
Cruiser Member
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 8:46:21 PM
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Now there's a great idea! Restoration of the first Studebaker Avanti on
TV. I'd be watching every second and taping every segment.
quote:
Originally posted by bige
Restore...
Get
a TV show to do a series on the restoration...they do it for everything
else, tanks, airplanes, Toyotas! Maybe Dave T or Jon Meyer would like a
little advertizing with a camera crew following the progress?
ErnieR
On its way to a 15.097 Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Spring 2006.
"Proud owner of a Lark powered Avanti" |
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barnlark
Commander Member
USA
3157 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 8:49:52 PM
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If Doug LeMay is the head of the Board and has any say in this, then
please let him know to properly restore this historic car. Even if this
was Jerry Garcia's car, it should be done properly and not left to
display as the result of the whim of an ill-conceived painting attempt
along the way. I'd be happy with a MAACO job rather than see this. |
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Rich
Champion Member
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 9:05:00 PM
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Thanks for everyone's response. Obviously, the overwhelming vote is to
restore. I like the rationalizations provided. For those just reading
this, please continue to register your vote. The entire thread will be
printed out and presented to the LeMay Museum Board of Directors along
with my best effort to prepare an impassioned plea that this car
deserves a complete restoration and a prominent presentation spot in
the new museum. I will volunteer to coordinate the expertise from this
forum (and others) during the restoration.
If the response is tepid, I wonder (as BoneHead007 suggests) if The Studebaker Museum would be interested in a swap....
I
have a question - here is a picture of the front of the car. Is it
missing the headlight trim rings or did early ones not have them?
Rich
Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78 |
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bige
Golden Hawk Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 9:10:14 PM
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Rims and glass covers.
ErnieR |
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okc63avanti
Cruiser Member
USA
195 Posts |
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hotwheels63r2
Commander Member
1911 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 9:41:35 PM
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Retore it.
FYI:
Check with local chapters about this project. Many of us have
experience and a bit of knowledge about how they were supposed to look,
whare to find the parts, and some may even lend a hand.
MIKE
WA State
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JeffDeWitt
Regal Member
USA
494 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 10:08:25 PM
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I really like the TV show idea. If nothing else it could be put on the
web, maybe on the LeMay Museum's website, maybe on the SDC and/or the
Studebaker Museum's site, or if even YouTube or Hulu.
Jeff DeWitt
https://carolinastudes.net
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barnlark
Commander Member
USA
3157 Posts |
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studegary
Commander Member
USA
5566 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 10:43:05 PM
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I would NOT RESTORE the Avanti. I WOULD make it museum quality. By
this, I mean to repaint it to its original appearance and bring the
interior up to a nice condition. Do not do the chassis, other than
tires and wheelcovers, or the engine compartment. This would make a
nice and representative display without getting into an extremely large
expenditure.
You mention the last Avanti. The last that I knew
5643 was in the Crawford Museum. The Crawford Museum has many cars for
sale, but I checked and 5643 wasn't one of them. If they are referring
to a higher serial number, such as 5653, those Avantis were early cars
that received late serial numbers in order to sell them. To me, 5643,
the last Avanti built and the last R3, is more significant than an
early prototype that received a late number in order to make it
saleable.
Gary L.
Wappinger, NY
SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer |
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Rich
Champion Member
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 10:45:54 PM
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Here is a picture of what is reported to be the last Avanti Sold by The
Studebaker Corporation. It has Serial # RB009 as I am told. I tried to
verify the actual Serial Number, but the hood latch was either broken
or mis-adjusted - I could not open the hood.
The story I heard
was that there were 9 additional Avanti's sold after production
stopped. Some or all of them may have been built much earlier but used
as engineering mules or proto-types.
Rich
Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78 |
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studegary
Commander Member
USA
5566 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 10:59:08 PM
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I can't tell by that number (RB009), but this probably is one of the
early Avantis that received a late serial number in order to sell it or
the 009 could be a 1965 Avanti II (RQA009) and not be a Studebaker. A
third possibility is that the 009 number is the engineering number of
one of the cars that received a normal serial number after the last
Avanti (5643), but the other Avantis in that category were EX294(x)
enginering numbers.
Gary L.
Wappinger, NY
SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer |
Edited by - studegary on 08/31/2009 1:30:37 PM |
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JBOYLE
Commander Member
USA
2211 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 11:10:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas63R2
[
To display it in its current state will only reinforce any oddball
connotations about the Avanti, and to a lesser degree Studebakers.
Avantis and Studebakers do not need any additional negative
reinforcement.
Amen!
As an Avanti owner, I'd like to see their popularity increase instead of looking like the punchline to a old joke.
63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)
Washington State |
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JBOYLE
Commander Member
USA
2211 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 11:11:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas63R2
[
To display it in its current state will only reinforce any oddball
connotations about the Avanti, and to a lesser degree Studebakers.
Avantis and Studebakers do not need any additional negative
reinforcement.
Amen!
As an Avanti owner, I'd like to see their popularity increase instead of looking like the punchline to a old joke.
63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)
Washington State |
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bige
Golden Hawk Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 11:25:13 PM
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To me the last one sold doesn't carry the same cache. Maybe because it
didn't signify the end as the Avanti II continued in much the same form
for years.
IMHO, the imprortant Stude Avantis are the first
one produced, Richard Vaux's car serial 4892 which could be considered
the first real 1964 Avanti, the R3's, and my car.
I
don't think there's anything wrong with doing a nice museum/driver
quality restoration. The general public from 5-8 feet away wouldn't
know the difference. If taking that route gets it done so be it but
from the looks of that car since you have to 95% just to get it
presentable you might as well do it 100% and do it right.
Jeez,
the Mopar and Corvette guys would restore something just because it was
1 of 3 in some weird color that nobody wanted when they were new and
that's why there was only 3 of them to begin with.
'53 Corvettes
were all the same color but you know that 'job #1' is worth a ton and
every other '53 Corvette owner would want that car even though he's
looking at a twin to the one he already has.
Just think of all
the hopeful expectations Studebaker Corp. had that were attached to
that car as it came of the line. It had the weight of the whole company
on its shoulders.
Brings a tear to your eye doesn't it? Or since we're talking Avanti a little drop of oil.
On its way to a 15.097 Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Spring 2006. |
Edited by - bige on 08/30/2009 11:42:14 PM |
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barnlark
Commander Member
USA
3157 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 12:02:58 AM
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The last one sold sounds like one's perspective. How many were still in
stock after the last one was built? The least popular color combo and
engine/trans combo could have been the last one actually sold by the
company. Who was the last dealer to sell the last Avanti on their lot?
It could have technically been the last real one sold by 1966 while
still under Studebaker's control. Depends how far one wants to take the
argument.
RB009 doesn't sound right, however the real last one is not there, it's in the Crawford. |
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JimsLeadCommander
Starlight Member
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 01:44:47 AM
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When people come into a museum I think most of us expect museum quality items on display. This Avanti as is,
looks terrible; reminds me of a "Cash for your Clunker" vehicle. Under
the hood I noticed Gold paint on the inner fenders; could THAT be the
original color? If it proves to be correct then paint it gold with
seats that match the nice beige dash with new carpet, door panels etc.
Then when the folks come in and see this golden marvel their mouths
will drop open and they'll be amazed with the style and beauty of the
restored (but, they won't know for sure) car.
JimsLeadCommander |
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R2Andy
Cruiser Member
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 02:04:13 AM
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In my book, 63R1001 deserves nothing less than a complete, correct
restoration. I don't care if George Barris himself put the car in it's
present condition, the car deserves so much better. As far as being the
first one built, there were others before it. But it IS the first
Production Avanti. The prototype cars had EX serial numbers and some
were given production serial numbers late in the game and were sold
like nothing special. The last Avanti built was R5643, the Erdelac car,
and was also the last of the 9 R3 cars. As far as the last car Sold?
How are you going to prove that?
R2Andy |
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bonehead007
Regal Member
481 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 09:52:18 AM
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The question to ask , is he willing to put the time and $$$$ towards
what looks to be a frame up restoration ? If not, maybe trying to
convince him to sell/donate it to the Studebaker Museum would be an
option to persue.
New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together |
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4961Studebaker
Commander Member
USA
1057 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 11:48:22 AM
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In my opinion, based on your idea that you want this car to be your flag ship.
Do
you really want this car, in its current condition, sitting in a "world
class auto museum located....at the S. lot of the Tacoma Dome"?
Risking a poor, lasting impression on your museum patrons?
Retore it to show quality the way the production order said, check with the Forum for authenticty, repair help, advice, etc.
Research
the angle of a TV restoration show/sponsor. Or a documentary piece
combining old Factory photo's, South Bend assembly, mixed with your own
present day restoration video for vistors to look at as they look at
the car.
ChopStu
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Edited by - 4961Studebaker on 08/31/2009 11:51:38 AM |
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Mike
Regal Member
396 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 12:06:03 PM
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I corresponded with Rich, in 2005, about the "Last Avanti". The serial
#, according to Eric Lemay, as I understood it, is R 5653. It's
believed to be the last Studebaker Avanti in the sense that there are
none with a higher serial #.
After production ceased, a few
engineering cars, (10?), were put into sellable condition, given
regular serial #'s, and sold. I've seen build sheets for two of these:
02/26/64, 63R 5650 = 4/26/62, EX-2947, (63R X9)
04/03/64, R-5651 = 4/03/62, EX-2944, (62R X6)
The
above is date of build sheet, standard serial # assigned, date
engineering # assigned, engineering serial #, and (second engineering #
). I wonder if a build sheet for R 5653 exists. My guess is that it
will show the car was EX 2942, 45, or 46.
I don't know if the engineering # was left in place, on the frame rail, near the steering box, or not.
It's interesting that the serial # 63R 5650 uses the the 1963 Avanti
prefix with the # 5650, which is past the last '64 production #.
There's a note on the build sheet that it was "converted to '63
production car...". I wonder if R-5651 & R 5653 were to 1964 spec.
Mike M. |
Edited by - Mike on 08/31/2009 12:57:56 PM |
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fmarshall
Regal Member
351 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 12:36:28 PM
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#1001 should be in as built. The last one ??
========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA
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Edited by - fmarshall on 08/31/2009 12:36:52 PM |
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R3 challenger
Cruiser Member
106 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 12:49:39 PM
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The build sheets I have for R-5653 show a final assembly date of
4-16-62. A note at the bottom says "Car built in Engineering Dept. as
62RX8 Prototype serial EX-2946."
The production order for
63R-1001 says it was originally Avanti White with an Orange interior
(Deluxe, Option #733=perforated seat inserts). It was built as an
R2/4-speed. Power steering is listed on the PO, but it's doesn't appear
to be on the car now. The photos show a white door jamb (agreeing with
the original PO), but the under hood area is gold.
Recently,
there's been discussion about some Studebakers of the 1960s having been
built with red spark plug cables. The wires on this car appear to be
red, but that doesn't prove anything, of course. The Avanti wires have
not been a subject of that discussion yet, just Lark and Hawks. Wonder
if these are original?
George
george krem |
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8E45E
Commander Member
Canada
2610 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 1:02:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by okc63avanti
Restore it as per the production order ...
AGREED!
Craig |
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MikeValent
Champion Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 1:07:08 PM
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All I can think of to display it in its current condition would be to
have a figure of Sherwood Egbert pulling a sheet off it while uttering
the famous mortuary line from The Godfather, "Look what they did to my
boy". As it looks now, it could serve as a good illustration of JDP's
"cheap Avanti" concept.
Its only significant museum value would
be as Studebaker's first production Avanti. That demands restoration to
its actual build specs and quality. Meaning the paint and the bumper
chrome probably shouldn't be perfect.
On the other end, I would
think that the last Avanti manufactured - last completed one off the
assembly line - would have some importance. Last sold, either by the
company or by one of its dealers, is a big "so what?"
MikeV
Pompano Beach, FL
83 Avanti 377I |
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Mike
Regal Member
396 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 1:07:15 PM
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George,
There should be two other dates on the build sheet. The date of the
build sheet is in the top left corner. Maybe there's a ship date near
the top right corner. I'd expect both to be 1964.
Mike M.
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Edited by - Mike on 08/31/2009 1:10:34 PM |
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Topic |
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Request for advice re Avanti #1001
