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Thread: 1963 Avanti with R3 engine? & 4-speed for sale in Minnesota

  1. #1
    Senior Member Milaca's Avatar
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    1963 Avanti with R3 engine? & 4-speed for sale in Minnesota

    https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hn...634316934.html

    I know nothing about this car but came upon it on Craigslist tonight.

    "1963 Studebaker Avanti: Rare R-3, V-8, Paxton SN-92 Blower
    4-speed, plus extra NOS 4-speed with car, Fiberglass body, Excellent Rouge
    w/White original interior. Never hit. New gas tank. Approx 60,000 miles.
    $39,950."

    In the middle of MinneSTUDEa.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    If it's a genuine R3 it's been retrofitted, which is OK if done well. The color is non-authentic as described plus white was never an interior option in a Stude built Avanti. The seller could be attempting to describe an Avanti Red car with a fawn interior...pics would have helped.

    If it's done well, then maybe someone will end up with a nice car.
    Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

  3. #3
    Senior Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    I liked the swoopy cutter
    Jeff

  4. #4
    Senior Member Milaca's Avatar
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    I found the company's website, but no sign of the Avanti however I found photos of a 1953 Commander. Can't imagine they would have confused a 1963 Avanti with a 1953 Studebaker.
    https://www.parklaneestatesales.com/u...allery/page-2/

    In the middle of MinneSTUDEa.

  5. #5
    Not a single pic on the 3 pages on the web site of the Avanti, but a couple of other Studes.
    Jim
    Often in error, never in doubt

    ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________Rabid Snail Racing

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    It would be really "Rare" since none were made by Studebaker.
    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    SDC member since 1968
    Studebaker enthusiast much longer

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    The Avanti is listed with an SN-92 Paxton when they were made with an SN-60. Perhaps more proofreading should be done before the ad is listed. Anyone notice the 400mph 57 Chevy?
    60 Lark convertible V-8 auto
    61 Champ 1/2 ton 4 speed
    62 Champ 3/4 ton 5 speed o/drive
    62 Daytona convertible V-8 4 speed
    63 G.T. R-2,4 speed
    63 Avanti (2) R-1 auto
    66 Daytona Sport Sedan V-8 4 speed

  8. #8
    I emailed the auction house as follows:



    > I see pictures of a '53 Studebaker Commander but no '63 Avanti that you
    > have listed.
    >
    > I'm confused or was the photographer confused. Is this a reserve auction
    > or are the vehicles no reserve?"


    There response was:



    " It's not an auction, everything is pre priced, offers can be made. My client has withdrawn the commander and added the Avanti (no picture).

    He believes it to be a Granatelli retrofit."

  9. #9
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    what is the latest model of Paxton superchargers? Could it be SN-92?

  10. #10
    Senior Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Question

    That's one of those often used used car/truck dealer terms that always amazes me...
    The same could be said for the Duke Boys Dodge Charger...
    It was 'never hit' either, but those creek jumps sure didn't help it any...
    Jeff

    "1963 Studebaker Avanti: Rare R-3, V-8, Paxton SN-92 Blower
    4-speed, plus extra NOS 4-speed with car, Fiberglass body, Excellent Rouge
    w/White original interior.
    Never hit.
    New gas tank. Approx 60,000 miles.
    $39,950."
    Last edited by DEEPNHOCK; 10-06-2011 at 07:41 PM.



    https://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock
    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

  11. #11
    I told them where to take pics for serial number, body number and engine numbers to find it on the R3 R4 registry, but they just respond that "they" "believe" the engine to be a Granatelli conversion. For that kind of money I want verification of a B engine. Someone may get a deal at auction as most won't drive on the speculation it "might" be an R3 engine. Given the SN92 and no mention of the original SN60 being included, I'm betting it is at best an R2 with an airbox. Somebody please prove me wrong and that it is one of the missing B numbers from the list.
    Last edited by jlmccuan; 10-06-2011 at 10:45 PM.
    Jim
    Often in error, never in doubt

    ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________Rabid Snail Racing

  12. #12
    Senior Member DEEPNHOCK's Avatar
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    Get one of the Salt2Salt guys to scoot over and look.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jlmccuan View Post
    <snip>
    Somebody please prove me wrong and that it is one of the missinf B numbers from the list.

  13. #13
    Bob Reining lives practically next door to Independence. I'll give him a call.

  14. #14
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    It's my dad's car.

  15. #15
    OK, Scott, now we're getting somewhere. Can you perhaps get us the numbers for the engine, body and chassis? The folks handling the sale didn't have the particulars. Probably not Stude folks and don't realize the significant difference.
    Last edited by jlmccuan; 10-06-2011 at 10:47 PM.
    Jim
    Often in error, never in doubt

    ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________Rabid Snail Racing

  16. #16
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    I don't have any of the numbers, but I did look up the engine serial number once. I can tell you it dates from 1959. Of course that does not mean that it is an unmodified block.
    The R3 conversion is as professional as is possible. There isn't anything that looks at all amateurish - as far as the R3 equipment and accessories go, and their installation.
    Last edited by Scott; 10-06-2011 at 11:09 PM.

  17. #17
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    Here is a picture of the car.

  18. #18
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    Hi, Scott,

    As you might imagine, R3-engined Avantis don't come up for sale often, so some here take them seriously.
    The R3 conversion is as professional as is possible. There isn't anything that looks at all amateurish - as far as the R3 equipment and accessories go, and their installation.
    Can you provide a list of what R3 equipment is mounted in/on the '59 block?

    jack vines
    PackardV8

  19. #19
    Senior Member mbstude's Avatar
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    If the block has a '59 serial number, that would mean it's not a true B-numbered R3 engine. Correct? I think if the Granatelli's did the swap, they would've used a B block. (Okay, some were numbered with an A prefix).

    Stranger things have happened. Could be the original B block froze and cracked and the internals were stuffed in a bored over '59 block. I'm curious to see what it really is.

    If the number actually does turn out to be an R3 number, Jim McCuan and I both have a current list of all known R3 engines, and where they are. Let the fun begin.

  20. #20
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    I'll have to check what's there. I remember everything being on the engine that's supposed to be, but I have not seen the car in about a year. Maybe I can get an engine photo.

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    MY father will try to get more information to me about the car, and probably more pictures, too. This is what he says: I know it started out as an r 1 , with a factory 4 speed and twin traction. I believe it has a 411 rear axle ratio .

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    Here is a photo of the interior taken today (with a phone camera - sorry about the quality).

  23. #23
    Senior Member Bob Andrews's Avatar
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    Very interesting, Scott. But if I might make a suggestion, go back and read through this entire thread. As an objective observer I see:

    Avanti said to be R3
    Massive interest, as can be expected with an R3 claim
    Vague description
    Seller that seems to have no idea what it really is
    Seller lists several points of misinformation
    When contacted, gives vague and evasive answers

    Son of owner responds to thread
    Interested parties ask specific questions
    Son gives more vague answers and 'I think' responses
    Owner tells son he will "TRY" to give more info
    After several inquiries and over 600 thread views, we get one small, distant picture and one grainy interior shot

    If you look at the situation as a whole, you will see that this is no way to sell a car for $40K. Folks would be nervous about buying a $3K car under those circumstances, let alone $40K!

    I have a background in sales; and I appreciate nice cars; so I suggest the following:

    Prompt, complete, exact answers to inquiries
    Accurate description of all components (exactly which Paxton is it? As Jack asked, supply a complete list of everything that makes it an R3)
    Clear, plentiful pictures of everything- engine number, visible engine components, interior, hog troughs.
    Complete list of documentation- bills, parts receipts, etc.
    Again, clear, sharp pictures of all of it!

    Yes, this is a lot of effort. But that price is VERY premium money- too much for a basic R1 car, but fair for an R3. So the key is lots of detailed information. It's the only way to get premium money, especially in this economy. I know lots of businessmen who are skeptical about what will happen going forward and instead of expanding their businesses are holding cash and waiting. They're nervous about everything, including stocks and bonds; even cash. So there are those that might like to hedge their portfolios with an investment-quality car or two. But answers that appear evasive are a red flag, and they will just move on.

    I know you might not want to get that involved with your father's sale, but at least he should know the seller is not doing him any favors. You don't get that kind of money for a car with a vague, inaccurate mention in passing with a description like "never hit". A car of this magnitude should have a whole page with all the above info clear and accurate; one needs to make potential buyers comfortable and confident before they'll open their wallet; remember, 95% of potential buyers will not be able to see the car in person until it rolls off the transport in their driveway.

    One more tip: This forum would be a great place to post all this. Yes, us looky-loos love to see it, but the best part is the exposure. Picture this scenario:

    "Hey, guy's got a nice Avanti for sale. Says it's an R3."
    "Really, where?"
    "Minnesota. Looks like a nice car."
    "Boy, that's just what I want! I might be interested, but I hate to call somebody until I know a little more."
    "Well, there's a thread all about it on the SDC forum. Go have a look!"

    It's like a free website for the car!

    Anyway, food for thought. Good luck to your father on his sale.
    Proprietor- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
    Formerly bams50

    Proud NON-CASO



    GOD BLESS AMERICA
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    Illegitimi non carborundum

    There is only one way to avoid criticism; do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.
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  24. #24
    Senior Member Welcome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Andrews View Post
    Very interesting, Scott. But if I might make a suggestion, go back and read through this entire thread. As an objective observer I see:

    Avanti said to be R3
    Massive interest, as can be expected with an R3 claim
    Vague description
    Seller that seems to have no idea what it really is
    Seller lists several points of misinformation
    When contacted, gives vague and evasive answers

    Son of owner responds to thread
    Interested parties ask specific questions
    Son gives more vague answers and 'I think' responses
    Owner tells son he will "TRY" to give more info
    After several inquiries and over 600 thread views, we get one small, distant picture and one grainy interior shot

    If you look at the situation as a whole, you will see that this is no way to sell a car for $40K. Folks would be nervous about buying a $3K car under those circumstances, let alone $40K!

    I have a background in sales; and I appreciate nice cars; so I suggest the following:

    Prompt, complete, exact answers to inquiries
    Accurate description of all components (exactly which Paxton is it? As Jack asked, supply a complete list of everything that makes it an R3)
    Clear, plentiful pictures of everything- engine number, visible engine components, interior, hog troughs.
    Complete list of documentation- bills, parts receipts, etc.
    Again, clear, sharp pictures of all of it!

    Yes, this is a lot of effort. But that price is VERY premium money- too much for a basic R1 car, but fair for an R3. So the key is lots of detailed information. It's the only way to get premium money, especially in this economy. I know lots of businessmen who are skeptical about what will happen going forward and instead of expanding their businesses are holding cash and waiting. They're nervous about everything, including stocks and bonds; even cash. So there are those that might like to hedge their portfolios with an investment-quality car or two. But answers that appear evasive are a red flag, and they will just move on.

    I know you might not want to get that involved with your father's sale, but at least he should know the seller is not doing him any favors. You don't get that kind of money for a car with a vague, inaccurate mention in passing with a description like "never hit". A car of this magnitude should have a whole page with all the above info clear and accurate; one needs to make potential buyers comfortable and confident before they'll open their wallet; remember, 95% of potential buyers will not be able to see the car in person until it rolls off the transport in their driveway.

    One more tip: This forum would be a great place to post all this. Yes, us looky-loos love to see it, but the best part is the exposure. Picture this scenario:

    "Hey, guy's got a nice Avanti for sale. Says it's an R3."
    "Really, where?"
    "Minnesota. Looks like a nice car."
    "Boy, that's just what I want! I might be interested, but I hate to call somebody until I know a little more."
    "Well, there's a thread all about it on the SDC forum. Go have a look!"

    It's like a free website for the car!

    Anyway, food for thought. Good luck to your father on his sale.
    Gee whiz …maybe we all should cut the son a little slack considering it was NOT he who started this thread about an estate sale in MN and a craigslist link to it. Let's remember, the son of the owner did NOT come to this forum "pedaling his wares" like so many others have done for FREE over these many years!!!

    Anyway, food for thought.
    Last edited by Welcome; Today at 07:30 AM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Bob Andrews's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welcome View Post
    Gee whiz …maybe we all should cut the son a little slack considering it was NOT he who started this thread about an estate sale in MN and a craigslist link to it. Let's remember, the son of the owner did NOT come to this forum "pedaling his wares" like so many others have done for FREE over these many years!!!

    Anyway, food for thought.
    Thank you, Captain Obvious My post was EXACTLY about "cutting slack"- as in helping someone trying to sell a Studebaker. There are no requirements attached- they are free to ignore it, no cost either way. Same as there's no cost, or problem, with "pedaling wares" here.

    Anyway, more food for thought
    Proprietor- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
    Formerly bams50

    Proud NON-CASO



    GOD BLESS AMERICA
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    Romans 15:13

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    There is only one way to avoid criticism; do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Andrews View Post
    Thank you, Captain Obvious My post was EXACTLY about "cutting slack"- as in helping someone trying to sell a Studebaker. There are no requirements attached- they are free to ignore it, no cost either way. Same as there's no cost, or problem, with "pedaling wares" here.

    Anyway, more food for thought
    I hope that Scott takes Bob's writeup in the vein it was intended. We all see a lot of writeups on the forum about various vehicles for sale. Some get a lot of criticism and some get thoughts on how to improve the listings. Lord knows we have a couple of the best Ebay sellers of Studebaker related vehicles on site and Scott could draw on that expertise.

    Scott!! If you read this please look up JDP's ads on Ebay (GoldenHawk) and see how he does a writeup. In fact, he will list a car for a modest fee.

    Don't be put off by the observations on the forum. Most of us hope you have a treasure in a very significant Avanti and would like to see it surface so we can share in it's Glory and also see you and your father receive the true value of the vehicle, which may be more than his listing.

    It's all good, just don't judge us harshly as the posters you are hearing from are truly trying to help. In fact, the knowledge base here may help authenticate the Avanti and be a resource to help sell it.

    Bob
    , ,

  27. #27
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    Scott,
    I think I would agree with sweetlobob, but I would also agree with Bob Andrews. Selling a car of this high interest will bring a lot of information as well as opinions. Please don't take any of it personally. We tend to be passionate about Studebakers, and especially the high value cars such as the R3's. It may sound critical, but please read the above as constructive criticism. While the observations about what is lacking in the ad may sound harsh, we are truly interested to know if indeed a real R3 engine is found, for one, and secondly, if that R3 engine was installed by Granatelli.
    Remember, the most important thing Bob Andrews was trying to convey is that if this is a true R3, then this is a very highly esteemed prize. Certainly worthy of much scrutiny. Any true R3 can nearly double the market price of that vehicle.
    Again, Good Luck with the sale.
    Last edited by sals54; Today at 11:17 AM.
    sals54

  28. #28
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    The serial no. is 63R1089. The car is listed in the Jet Thrust News of 2-18-03, Part B – AOAI web registry. The engine no. starts with an E. I have a picture of the engine here. I can't comment on the presentation or the presenter. Cars aren't their thing, obviously. I assume that the reason they have vague answers is because, believe it or not, the car is NOT the focus of the estate sale, but only a small part of it and might have been added just to "get it out there".


  29. #29
    Senior Member studebaker-R2-4-me's Avatar
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    It's not a full flow block with a oil filter up on the top. Granetelli's would not have used a pre 1963 block and bore it out to 304ci. I doubt highly the this engine even has an oil pan breather tube let alone have R3 heads. It's likely a blown 259-289 stock engine with a R3 air box. Really its too bad.

    Allen

    1964 GT Hawk

    Oakville, Ontario .
    Hamilton Chapter

  30. #30
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    The thing I find a little strange is the engine picture seems to show an oil filter at the front top of engine! A 1963 or 64 engine would have the oil filter in the full flow position. Right side, underneath.
    Frank van Doorn
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  31. #31
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    Yes, it's a partial flow block. I had said the engine block dated to 1959! But one cannot necessarily conclude that it is not bored out. By the way, I just learned the car comes with an extra blower (needs new bearings) that was on the car when my dad bought it. Also, the carburetor has been rebuilt within the last 2 years.
    Last edited by Scott; Today at 01:37 PM.

  32. #32
    Senior Member studebaker-R2-4-me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Yes, it's a partial flow block. I had said the engine block dated to 1959! But one cannot necessarily conclude that it is not bored out. By the way, I just learned the car comes with an extra blower (needs new bearings) that was on the car when my dad bought it. Also, the carburetor has been rebuilt within the last 2 years.
    Proof is in the pudding,.... Like I implied, the Granatelli connection is dead with a pre '63 engine partial flow block. Get a picture of the head casting numbers, valve covers with 2 vents, fuel pump, fuel filter and the list goes on and on before the estate represents something that is not there.

    Allen

    1964 GT Hawk

    Oakville, Ontario .
    Hamilton Chapter

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