#1
Which came first, the R3/R4 Bonneville cars and road test cars or the R3/R4 production cars?
07-31-2022, 12:46 PM
This may have been discussed before but I just reread an old post that referred to the preproduction cars as clones of the production cars. I believe the correct terminology would be the production R3/R4 cars are actually clones of the preproduction units. Doesn’t this sound correct? The preproduction jobs almost seem more significant and interesting.
/Nels




Been covered here in bits and pieces, but the prototype cars were hand built by Paxton as proof of concept and for promotional and advertising. No two were the same. Legend has it the prototypes were mostly 299" with Winfield camshafts and ported stock heads. Reportedly the R3 heads were not yet available when the prototypes were run.
The production R3 engines used different heads, camshafts, pistons, connecting rods, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds and several other smaller pieces. It would be correct to say the some of the lessons learned with the prototypes were incorporated in the production R3s, but they shared few engine parts in common; mainly the block and crankshaft.
jack vines

One of the pre-production EX cars has an R3 engine. Also, a Saginaw recirculating ball steering box. Also, it has pre-production square headlight bezels, and are not mounted with the production style recessed lip. They are direct to the nose and stand further out.
Brad Bez


For true, Brad; some of the prototypes had several engines installed over their time with Paxton. In a memoir, Richard Paul detailed some of his Bonneville experience and support from Paxton; in it were mentions of engines coming, going and being sold to best offer.
Then, some of the prototypes were modified by subsequent owners. The detailed history of some of them may never be complete and/or verifiable.
jack vines


The ported standard head engines were very early. Maybe they were the A engines? By the summer of 63 the R3 heads were being used along with the R3/4 connecting rod. The early B # engines were 299 ci. Some of the Bonneville engines were 299’s but had R3/4 heads and connecting rods. Not sure on the headers but I think StuV may have developed those and sold them to Paxton? You’re right on the cams, I think those were in development right up to the end.
Going back to he topic, aren’t the factory cars clones of the final prototypes. The prototypes certainly aren’t clones of the production cars; they predated them!
Nels



Jack. I might be one of those guys you refer to? I don’t think the Paxton built cars are production any more than a 65 Shelby 350 Mustang is a production unit. The Paxton built cars have their own special pedigree. I almost considered them on a higher plane than the production cars….but that’s me
/Nels


The R3 head drawings date back to 1962, before the first engines were run at Bonneville.
/64Avanti



On the engine change out: I’m certain the Paxton cars, especially the original allotment of Paxton cars, got more than one engine change. That only makes sense as the engine development continued they had to be tried out somewhere so why not in the stable of cars Paxton was allotted. At one time there were probably records of each engine that was installed in any particular car. Those records, I’m certain. No longer exist. So those cars that still exist probably are ok if they have any B engine or an A engine in the engine bay. I will say, A engines are extinct unless they are just modified originals that retained their original engine number which very well could be the case. I still own the HotRod road test R3 Lark. It has engine number B20 under the hood. I know it is original as I have the original shipper when it left Paxton and went to the first owner. Joe Granatelli noted the engine number, B20, on the shipping papers. That was a stroke of luck for me. I think it’s the correct engine as road tested as it’s totally original, minus a repaint, and the under hood detail is exactly the same as the road test right down to the funky aftermarket upper radiator hose.
/Nels




For true, Brad; some of the prototypes had several engines installed over their time with Paxton. In a memoir, Richard Paul detailed some of his Bonneville experience and support from Paxton; in it were mentions of engines coming, going and being sold to best offer.
Then, some of the prototypes were modified by subsequent owners. The detailed history of some of them may never be complete and/or verifiable.
jack vines


I will ask the owner if the original engine "EX" stamped number is on it or if it is an A-series, or B series serial engine.
/Brad



Hi, Nels,
The difficulty with restoring one of the Paxton cars, as with restoring any racing car, is choosing which of the several engine/transmission/paint combinations it may have had over the sixty years.
In theory, any of the iterations as built by Paxton could be chosen, including the last one where the R-series engine was pulled and the car sold with a stock engine. Again, with Richard Paul as the authority, he saw that happen.
We need our friend Alan Emory to weigh in here also. He was welding R3 oil pans in the back room at Paxton, often taking his pay in R-series parts and saw some of what went on then.
jack vines


Jack. Actually the R3/4 cars, Bonneville and road test versions aren’t too difficult as the paint is documented and an R3 or R4 engine just needs to be a real B engine or maybe the A engine. The problem is figuring out if you indeed have the original car to begin with.
/Nels


That's the challenge of restoring a sixty-year-old race car which has passed through many hands. How would we define a "real B engine"? We know the prototype cars had several engines during their tenure at Paxton and afterward. Prime example is the "Due Centro" engine which was in the car for only one session and is at present separated.
Toward the end, Paxton was selling leftover B-stamped engine blocks with bitsa internals. They ran out of R3 rods, R3 heads, but there were B-stamped mongrels sold which are still out there in the community. 
jack vines





Thanks to Alan Emory for refreshing my memory on the prototype EX2942, which was first run with a Paxton-built 299" and for one brief, shining moment, became the R5. 
Paxton sold it to Bill Burke, a Hot Rod Magazine staffer who was active at Bonneville. By that time, Studebaker was ancient history and Burke swapped in a Ford SOHC 427". When Burke ran out of money, Richard Bennett III of Ridgely, West Virginia had been promised first refusal and bought it. Buying EX2942 was a good investment. Being offended by the SOHC Ford and leaving it in CA was a bad financial decision; it would be worth as much as the car today. However, Dick rightly felt it should be Studebaker powered, but the only engine Burke had at the time was his 229" with which he'd set a class record, so Dick came home with that one. He'd wanted the Due Cento engine, but that had long since been sold.
In summary, in the space of five years, EX2942 had several engines; some we know of and some are lost to history. The knowns are a prototype R3 299", the Due Cento, a Ford 427" and the Studebaker 229". Any one of those would be a correct restoration as it ran at that point in time.
Who has EX 2942 today and what engine is in it?
jack vines - Aug 2022    (SDCF1953296)



The EX car I know of being restored DOES have the original EX serial numbered engine.....confirmed today from the owner. It DOES have R3 heads on it (at least). It was missing the original R3 headers, which I supplied. (not repops). It also has the Saginaw recirculating ball steering box. A Midland-Ross tagged frame. Point is. R3 heads were being prototyped when this car was hand built. The next serial numbered EX is in my shop. 
Things like emblems, and door pulls, and wiring closeout panels totally never made it into production without changes. It has woven cloth body, not matt. All hand laid up.
/Brad





Jack, EX2942 had Stude engine #EX2143 and Paxton #B-23, same engine just 2 stampings on it. When Rich called me on 10/28/2012 and ask if I had any pics. of his car he still had it. / Alan


Thanks for the detail, Alan.
IIRC, you mentioned to me you'd seen Paxton re-stamp some V and P blocks with B serial numbers. Was this later, when they'd sold all the original R3 selection?
/jack vines



I just looked at the Bonneville video (the one without sound), and EX-2942 is shown in its Due Cento trim, with its skirts over the rear tires, hood scoop, etc. Anyway, EX-2942 was clearly a red Avanti when that video was shot. And this is consistent with the info that Richard Bennett wrote on Bob's Resource Avanti pages.

I also went back and again watched the Youtube video called something like "Take a 200 mph ride - Studebaker Avanti." It seems to show Andy G. as the driver. A truck gives the Avanti a push to get it started, and there is a video shot from the truck when the Avanti begins to pull away. And the Avanti is clearly one that is painted white. And the video shows a speed of 200 mph when Andy goes through the traps.

So the color of the Avanti in the 200 mph ride video has me confused, but so does the caption under the video, which says:
"A group of Stude nuts put together a Record Breaking Avanti with a 30 year old Stude engine, besting Andy Granatelli's world-famous ride by several MPH."



Until today, I thought the 200 mph video was of Due Cento's Bonneville run, but now I don't know what to think. Could somebody clarify what I am looking at in these videos?

Thanks, Mike  (VtMike)



This is a little off topic but I bought B-110. I bought it from Joe Granatelli and it arrived at my house in Wisconsin on Dec 5th 1969 (my 19th birthday). At the time I was told there were no more R3 heads, con rods, or camshafts. I got an assembled short block, R3 head gaskets, new rocker assemblies with pushrods, a high output Lark type supercharger pulley, R3 fan blade, HV oil pump, and an R3 tach. The only stamping on the block was the B#.   JPepper



Alan, all 8 pistons were identical and ForgeTrue. The no.8 piston had been assembled with the cast iron ring on top and chrome ring in the 2nd groove as compared to the other 7. The welded no. 8 dimensions matched the others within a few thousands inches and weight matched. The pistons were replaced with custom Venolia forged ones acquired by Jon Myer. They were made to the R3 spec and weight matched at 466 gms.
Incidently, the car is owned by a second owner after Marty, as far as I know.
WCP


Hi, Jim,
Any recollection as to what cam came in your short block?
IIRC, even before your B110, Paxton were using R2 cam, rods and heads on the long blocks they were selling.

jack vines