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 A-arm bushings, which type?
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BRUCESTUDE
Regal Member

307 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2010 :  1:24:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have the front end of my '64 Daytona apart, and ready to order bushings. I noticed that some vendors sell the plastic-type, and others have the OEM rubber. What are the benefits, if any, of one over the other?
BTW, I can't believe how much crap builds up on those a-arms!!!I think I'll take 'em to my local machine shop for cleaning...

jimmijim8
Commander Member

USA
1583 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2010 :  3:15:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Delrin will outlast the rubber 5 to 1. Rubber will offer you just a little ride difference in the way that the delrin wil not flex one iota. I prefer the delrin. jimmijim

Stude Junkie+++++++Do it right the f$$$$ Time. Never mind. Just do it right. When youre done your done. You'll know it.
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Alan
Commander Member

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2010 :  3:54:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After you clean them look for cracks. I prefer the UHMW Plastic for bushings, a little softer than Delrin but stiffer than urethane, with a better natural lubricity than either of the others.
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55coupe
Starlight Member

77 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2010 :  7:13:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On that last post Alen said something about UHMW or urethane. I didn.t think anyone had urethane bushings for studebakers and what are UHMW?
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Jerry Forrester
Golden Hawk Member

USA
766 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2010 :  7:17:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 55coupe
what are UHMW?



Ultra High Molecular Weight.

Jerry Forrester
Forrester's Chrome
Douglasville, Georgia
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okc63avanti
Regal Member

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2010 :  12:00:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are many who say that the Delrin bushing transmit more road vibration and bumps through suspension to the car and to the steering wheel. My car is being rebuilt and I'm going back with rubber OEM bushings.

John



63R-2386 under restoration & modification

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jimmijim8
Commander Member

USA
1583 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2010 :  09:13:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Precisely. jimmijim

Stude Junkie+++++++Do it right the f$$$$ Time. Never mind. Just do it right. When youre done your done. You'll know it.
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55coupe
Starlight Member

77 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2010 :  11:03:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I brought my 55 commander coupe back to life after sleeping for some 18 yrs, it recived new springs and derlin bushings.At the time this seemed to be the hot setup.Now this was the first Studebaker I had driven in many years so I had nothing to compair the ride to. It does seem like the ride can be harsh on the car but new springs too.At this time I'm considering oem bushings on the lowers to see if that makes any differance.I would have liked to use urathane but didn't think that was an option is it?I've read the opion of some of you on the forum about oem and derlin does a mix make any sence are there any other real options? The car does have around 11000 miles sence hitting the road again. As uasual the information from the members of this site is very much appreciated.
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Alan
Commander Member

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2010 :  1:37:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would leave the Delrins in if I were you. Stock rubber is trash. There were 2 things that bothered me about the Delrins but have not proven true. One is the hardness, I thought that they might crack easier since they are hard and light. Second is you have to keep greasing them and most people do not do their own greasing and when they do take their car to some place like Jiffy Lube they don't even look in that area for a grease fitting and don't have the proper silicone grease for it.
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52 Ragtop
Golden Hawk Member

USA
636 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2010 :  7:34:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit 52 Ragtop's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Avanti R-3 suspension, is the same as on my 52 Commander. there are bronze bushings, no rubber ones. the ride is not hard at all. I plan on replacing the front end bushings in my 63 Avanti with the derlin ones. I used them in a 62 Daytona convertible that I once had.

Jim
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StudeRich
Commander Member

USA
7465 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2010 :  1:36:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alan

After you clean them look for cracks. I prefer the UHMW Plastic for bushings, a little softer than Delrin but stiffer than urethane, with a better natural lubricity than either of the others.


If you are going to "turn" some out of UHMW Alan, let us know when we can buy them.
That sounds like a good alternative to too hard or too soft.

StudeRich
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studebakerkid
Cruiser Member

USA
172 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2010 :  2:06:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone that uses OEM rubber is nuts. Back in 1981 I did my 65 with OEM rubber and the 54. I have two sets of delrin sitting it the shop waiting for me to get a clear space. The car will be much more nimble with delrin then the rubber and it wont have to be done again in your lifetime.

If you car is ugly then it better be fast.....

65 2dr sedan
64 2dr sedan (Pinkie)
61 V8 Tcab
61 Tcab 20R powered
55 Commander Wagon
54 Champion Wagon
46 Gibson Model A
50 JD MC
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jackb
Golden Hawk Member

571 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2010 :  3:54:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
....are you saying you've been driving on OEM bushings for 28 years ?
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studebakerkid
Cruiser Member

USA
172 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2010 :  5:41:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
YES Jack 28 years is all that they lasted.

If you car is ugly then it better be fast.....

65 2dr sedan
64 2dr sedan (Pinkie)
61 V8 Tcab
61 Tcab 20R powered
55 Commander Wagon
54 Champion Wagon
46 Gibson Model A
50 JD MC
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bomarkham
Champion Member

32 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2010 :  10:35:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
28 years is probably 18 years longer then the OEM was designed to last. So, I'd say you got over on them. I have repaired the mounts and frame sections on and around the cross member for cracks on several cars with the delrin bushings. I attribute these repairs to the added rigidity and reduced flexibility these bushings cause. The first one, a 57 Golden Hawk, had only had them installed for about 5 years. The owner told me that there had been no cracks prior to the last rebuild. I got similar stories from the other owners as well. Seems to me that the light weight frames our cars have don't tolerate these things to well. Of course, these were all 53 to 60 hawk and sedan. I haven't seen any later models equipped with these, yet?

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PackardV8
Commander Member

USA
1678 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2010 :  10:21:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
At a guess, the cars you mention above were also typically running sticky radial tires three sizes larger than the hard, skinny OEM bias plys. The modern tires load the frame and running gear to a far greater degree than envisioned when they were designed and built.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8
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rusty nut garage
Regal Member

USA
396 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2010 :  07:19:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMHO the problem with the OEM bushing is the repops don't seem to be of high quality, the quality of bushing is not up to standards. I've seen them show signs of detoriation well within a year after installation


Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)
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bomarkham
Champion Member

32 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2010 :  1:49:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jack,

No, not all were running radials. Several were running the Coker bias ply original type tires. The ones that were running radials were running 205 75R15's, and the one sedan was running 215 75R15's. I run 205 75R15's on all my stude's and have no problems with frame cracks. So, I'm NOT inclined to pin these particular problems on tires. I'm more inclined to think that these problems are the result of the A-Arms bushing inability to flex and absorb and/or disappate the stresses of road shock. The relative light weight construction of the frame and sub frame components therefore take the additional punishment, and as they say, something has to give.
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53k
Commander Member

USA
2211 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2010 :  08:02:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BRUCESTUDE

I have the front end of my '64 Daytona apart, and ready to order bushings. I noticed that some vendors sell the plastic-type, and others have the OEM rubber. What are the benefits, if any, of one over the other?
BTW, I can't believe how much crap builds up on those a-arms!!!I think I'll take 'em to my local machine shop for cleaning...


FWIW, Jon Myer (Myer's Studebaker) will NOT install Delrin bushings in a car. I think his reasoning is the based on the same experience that Bo has had.



Paul Johnson, Wild and Wonderful West Virginia. '64 Daytona Wagonaire, '64 Daytona convertible, '53 Commander Starliner, Museum R-4 engine, '62 Gravely Model L, '72 Gravely Model 430

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BRUCESTUDE
Regal Member

307 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2010 :  8:39:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, quite divided opinions on this. I took the a-arms to my favorite machine shop to get cleaned, and the machinist said he used the delrin bushings in a small pickup that he uses, and really likes them.
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rusty nut garage
Regal Member

USA
396 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  07:29:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know of a local studebaker owner that went to the trouble of buying the energy suspension polyurethane bushing and custom machining them to fit. I'm not sure of the application that he purchased them for, but regardless they're was some maching involved. I think the next one I do for myself I'll go this route.


Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)
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rusty nut garage
Regal Member

USA
396 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  07:29:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know of a local studebaker owner that went to the trouble of buying the energy suspension polyurethane bushing and custom machining them to fit. I'm not sure of the application that he purchased them for, but regardless they're was some maching involved. I think the next one I do for myself I'll go this route.


Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)
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junior
Starlight Member

Canada
96 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  09:18:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm confused, I thought Delrin was a trade name for urethane, so basically aren't they are the same material?

What exactly is the difference between the two materials?

If any material other than rubber causes the frames of Studes to crack, once they have been repaired is it ok to run with Delrin or urethane bushings?

Where would one obtain quality OEM rubber bushings, and if these bushings are NOS would the rubber still be good?

Thanks, Junior.



54 Champ C5 Hamilton car. In my family since 1958.
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okc63avanti
Regal Member

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  09:43:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
At the end of the day rubber bushings vs. Delrin is a personal choice. My avanti is being restored by the Myers and they recommended agaisnt the Delrin bushings. Changing bushing is not to difficult so I'll go with the rubber ones and if they only last 5 to 7 years then I'm OK with that. Hopefully one day someone will sale some made out of polyurethane.

Here's a link to Bob Johnstone's page with his opinion on Delrin bushings. Whether or not you agree this was very well written by Bob. Bob, thanks again for the awesome job you do with your website its a gold mine of Studebaker information.

https://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/Suspension/Delrin/delrinbushingsrj.html

John



63R-2386 under restoration & modification

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bomarkham
Champion Member

32 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  12:57:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hopefully, once the frame is repaired it will not crack again in the same place. However, and once again, if you install these bushings the frame, cross member and saddle are subject to cracking again in another location. Something will still have to take the additional punishment and that something is the frame, cross member and saddle. SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE. Take your pick as to which will crack first.

Please, don't get me wrong, your car, your choice. Just hope your front end doesn't fail while your cruising down the highway. The guy with the 57 was and all though he wasn't hurt, he wasn't happy with the damage done the car, or the bill to repair it all. If an OEM type bushing last 5, or 10 years that's real good.
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PackardV8
Commander Member

USA
1678 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  1:35:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FWIW, the '56J Golden Hawk was the first model to identify frame cracking as a design flaw. Studebaker issued a Service Bulletin detailing how and where to weld in metal to reinforce the frame in the problem areas.

And no, it wasn't because of the weight of the Packard V8. The supercharged Stude V8 and the Packard V8 weigh essentially the same. It's caused by putting higher horsepower V8s and more weight in frames designed back in the day of 90-120hp engines and then driving them harder, not to mention sixty years longer.

Bottom line, frame cracking was identified as a problem fifty years ago; it can occur in most any V8 car which is driven hard or has Delrin bushings or larger radial tires or just long, hard use.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8
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junior
Starlight Member

Canada
96 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  1:57:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, point made, will look for quality rubber bushings in the (near?) future. While reading about Delrin I learned that it was used by Mattel in the early years of HotWheels production for their wheel bearings...cool!

Still need to know if I look for repop rubber bushings or NOS...which would be the best bet? How does one go about determining what the 'quality' of the rubber is?

Thanks again, Junior.



54 Champ C5 Hamilton car. In my family since 1958.
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okc63avanti
Regal Member

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2010 :  6:59:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by junior

Still need to know if I look for repop rubber bushings or NOS...which would be the best bet? How does one go about determining what the 'quality' of the rubber is


I would never use old NOS rubber, it may be deteriorated after 40~50 years. Give Myer's Studebaker a call they have a bushing I believe that is newly made, it may even be a cross over part from a brand X.


John



63R-2386 under restoration & modification

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