Thread: Studebaker Avanti TKO 5 speed install - how to

Hey Tom,
Not that it matters now but T-86 is car transmission.
The 3 speed V8 trucks used T-85C's/T89's


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

Tom, Was that picture taken in Lompoc, CA?

Interesting, I was told the T86 was a "truck trans", but you are right
it doesnt really matter now.

Actually, all the pictures except the one of the TKO were taken in the
City of Lompoc, Ca. That IS my TKO, but the picture was taken in the
City of Canoga Park, Ca .. by the shop I bought it from.

Before I get a bunch of emails asking for the T86, its already sold,
and will be on its way to the City of Los Angeles once removed. Funny,
I guess that keeps the transmission balance in the world equal.

This thread will take some time, as I am doing what I can, when I can,
and, as always, the "drivers" come first.[B)]

Tom

Tom, Who does your machine work here in Lompoc?

The TKO kit is made by Dan Giblin, he has a post on this forum which
lists what it costs and includes. For all my machine work I have had
done by a co-worker in our shop. I am having the bearing retainer done
to the 4.677 diameter according to Dan's notes. I removed the retainer
last night. I found a website that explains how to remove it without
disturbing the input shaft :

https://www.5speedtransmissions.com/techref.html

This site has PDF files on how to rebuild the TKO, T56 and T5 manual
transmissions - worth a download.

https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...transmissions/

Tom

Out of the box, and into the backside of a 16 inch Camaro rim for the
removal of the bearing retainer. One thing to notice here, some numb
nuts used high temp RTV on the bearing retainer already, but you are
supposed to use an Anaerobic Sealant (ET-M29) on the bearing retainer
and the tailshaft housing.





So you remove these four bolts, then break the sealant by using the
two slots created in the retainer to get a screwdriver in. You can
see it on the outside diameter just below the top left bolt :





Be sure to keep pressure on the input shaft to keep it from coming out
with the bearing retainer. The bearing retainer centers on the bearing
race thats pushed into the case. The outer diameter of the retainer is
what centers the transmission into the bellhousing.



Ready to go into the South Bend Lathe at my work.



Tom

Tom-

I'm following this with great interest as I'm going this route over the T-10 for my Lark project. Thanks for taking the time to post this thread!

I'll be watching...

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

Tom, don't loose those shims

Your welcome Bob, and dont worry Gibbs, thats why their on the vent!

Tom

The bearing retainer is now at the 4.677 outside diameter. We found
that the throwout bearing surface was .005 out compared to the outer
diameter that centers the transmission. Checking the inner diameter
that centers on the input shaft bearing, we found that was the same as
the outer diameter. That means the throwout bearing surface might not
be the best place to indicate too. Bobby readjusted the lathe to use
the inner diameter to indicate off of. Then the outer was dead on. So
in conclusion - chuck the bearing retainer on the throwout bearing dia
but be sure to dial in the lathe on the inner bearing surface.

I hope that makes sense.

Tom

For these modern aluminum case trannys, I shim to the tight end of spec for end play - particularly the T5. I've no experience with the bigger Tremecs though, but would probably treat them the same were it mine...

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

quote:Interesting, I was told the T86 was a "truck trans", but you are right
it doesnt really matter now.
Tom

As an aside, that T86 could indeed be a truck transmission. If it has straight cut gears in low and 2nd, it is a truck transmission. I have a T86 in my '61 champ pickup behind a 259 V8. I also remember a local '55 pickup with V8 engine and T86 OD tranny. Also, my Dad's '56 pickup has a T86 and V8. The T86 with straight cut gears was also used behind the 6 cyl. engines in trucks for many years. The input shaft was different between the transmission for the 6s and V8s, obviously, but the rest of the transmission was the same. Dale

As for T85 vs. T86 transmissions, when it comes to the innards there is a world of difference. The T85 is very similar to a T10, with some of the parts even inter changable, i.e. the synchronizers. Compared to the T85, the T86 looks like something for a riding lawnmower. Also, when it comes to abuse the T85 is just about bullet proof, whereas the T86 is best handled gently.

Joe H

quote:Originally posted by JoeHall

As for T85 vs. T86 transmissions, when it comes to the innards there is a world of difference. The T85 is very similar to a T10, with some of the parts even inter changable, i.e. the synchronizers. Compared to the T85, the T86 looks like something for a riding lawnmower. Also, when it comes to abuse the T85 is just about bullet proof, whereas the T86 is best handled gently.

Joe H

Our '55 E7 has the T85, but I'm sure it's not the original transmission.

Was the T85 optional on V8 pickups?

Alan,
I have a 52 2R10 that someone transplanted a 224 Routestar V8 with T-85 OD into. I believe the engine is out of an early 56 truck.
I also have a 62 Champ V8 with the T85 OD and one out of a 64 Champ V8.

On 8E V8 trucks, the only 3 spd was an T89C(T-87E for right hand control)with or without OD. The T-89C was an improved version of the T-85.

The three speed for 8E six cylinder trucks was the T-90B w/ or W/o OD.
Maybe T-86's were used in earlier Commander six and V8's trucks.

But Toms Avanti is an 1963 and thats the era I was focusing on.


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

quote:Originally posted by Transtar60

Alan,
I have a 52 2R10 that someone transplanted a 224 Routestar V8 with T-85 OD into. I believe the engine is out of an early 56 truck.
I also have a 62 Champ V8 with the T85 OD and one out of a 64 Champ V8.

On 8E V8 trucks, the only 3 spd was an T89C(T-87E for right hand control)with or without OD. The T-89C was an improved version of the T-85.

The three speed for 8E six cylinder trucks was the T-90B w/ or W/o OD.
Maybe T-86's were used in earlier Commander six and V8's trucks.

But Toms Avanti is an 1963 and thats the era I was focusing on.


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

So maybe the T-85 in our truck IS the original transmission?

Could be Allen but my specifications book only covers 8E trucks.
I think there were Truck spec books for earlier years but not sure.
Unfortunately the parts books only name certain trannies like the 4 and 5 spds.


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

Switching gears from "Everything you wanted to know about a T86, T85,
& T89, but were too afraid to ask" .. BACK to the TKO "how to" thread,
here is the modified bearing retainer, turned down to 4.677.



Also, here is a picture of the front seal, rear seal, and the correct
sealant used on the TKO transmissions.
Seal Napa 11123
Seal Napa 14978
Sealant Napa 765-1189 (PX# 51813)



Tom

Sorry Tom , but threads just seem to wander off course.


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

quote:Originally posted by Transtar60

Sorry Tom , but threads just seem to wander off course.


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

How 'bout them Rockies?

LOL

Sorry from me too!!---Please continue!!!

A quick update, held off on putting the TKO back together. Dan sent
me an email on Friday to let me know he has been working on a way to
allow me to leave the bellhousing on, and relatively new clutch assy
untouched. I havent been looking forward to taking all of this apart
since it was done only a couple thousand miles ago. Since I got the
10 spline TKO, I dont need to change the clutch for a 26 spline. This
will be on its way early next week, and will get interference fitted
to my input shaft, in order to use the stock pilot bushing that is in
the crank already. Since my work heat treats parts, I will have them
do the work. Tooling steel 01 gets heated to 750-800 degrees, and it
is quenched in oil after being positioned on the input shaft, which is
then as hard as the input shaft itself. This is welcome news since I
can put off disassembling everything until I rebuild the engine. At
that time I will use the original pilot bushing included in the kit if
there is any issues that develop from this alternative solution. I will
simply remove the input shaft from the TKO, and bring it to my work.

I hope to get the T86 out this weekend or early next week. Halloween
is coming up, and the wife is pulling down boxes from the attic, the
Avanti cant get put up on blocks in the garage until everything's out.

Tom

Short update, I received the input shaft extention in the mail this
weekend, and removed the input shaft. I followed the instruction in
the manual, but 17 little roller bearings STILL fell out inside the
transmission when I CAREFULLY pulled the input shaft out. For those
who end up with the same problem, I used a little telescoping magnet
to retrieve them through the drain plug hole at the case bottom. At
inspection of the front bearing, the race looks worn, and the rollers
also, so I will source a new bearing for it.



The extention tip allows me to use the oilite bushing thats already
in the back of the crank :





The trick is, Dan put an interference fit to hold it tight to the tip
of the input shaft. The process of heat treating the 01 Tool steel
is to heat to 1200 degrees F and cool in oil. While the piece is at
1200 degrees, it will easily slide onto the input shaft. My work is
versed in how to do this process, so I will hand it off to Guy again
and let the experts do their thing!

Tom

Couple of tidbits, and a question...

When you put those needle bearings back in, hold them in place with a dab of grease in the end of the shaft.

And the interference fit on your adapter...
When you install it, set the cap on the top of a light bulb and set the shaft in the freezer.
Put a drop of Loc-Tite (609 Bearing Mount) on the shaft (not the adapter cup) when you put the adapter on.
(You don't want to push any of the shaft treatment into the cap and possible get into a hydraulic lock situation).
If it it on the shaft, the adapter will squeegee it off toward the outside of the saaembly)

The industrial bearing guys have electric bearing heaters to do this kind of work all the time (BTDT).

And your heat treatment. Does your guy anneal the adapter after hardening it? Just curious.
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Short update, I received the input shaft extention in the mail this
weekend, and removed the input shaft. I followed the instruction in
the manual, but 17 little roller bearings STILL fell out inside the
transmission when I CAREFULLY pulled the input shaft out. For those
who end up with the same problem, I used a little telescoping magnet
to retrieve them through the drain plug hole at the case bottom. At
inspection of the front bearing, the race looks worn, and the rollers
also.

The trick is, Dan put an interference fit to hold it tight to the tip
of the input shaft. The process of heat treating the 01 Tool steel
is to heat to 1200 degrees F and cool in oil. While the piece is at
1200 degrees, it will easily slide onto the input shaft. My work is
versed in how to do this process, so I will hand it off to Guy again
and let the experts do their thing!

Tom

Deep-N-Hock Acres
Brooklet, Georgia
DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project: Ist Gen Owner - project)
Mysterious Project Z
https://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

I really don't think the sleeve needs to be heat treated since its running in a bronze bushing. The heat treat strength is already in the shaft. If you think about it, a crank shaft journal is soft cast iron running in babbit. The important thing is the dissimilar metals and the softer bronze.

Thanks for the input guys, I will let the shop take care of the heat
treating/install - they know best what they are doing. Dan made it
with .001 interference, and put a hole in the tip to keep it from any
hydrolock during the install. He even did a test run to check that
it would work. The input shaft is hardened, and the extention will
end up around the same Rockwell hardness.

Tom

Tom, Did you check the runout on this install? These transmissions are a little on the touchy side and like to be lined up as close to "zero" as possible. Scott.

Scott, I am not disrupting the factory alignment of the bellhousing,
so there shouldnt be any runout issues.

I got the sleeve installed on friday, it took two tries, first we did
it by the book, used a kilm and heated it to 1400 degrees. This did
not go well, as oxidation built a layer of crud on the inside and it
refused to slide on. Guy waited for it to cool down and then Bobby
cleaned it back up, inside and out. Next we did it like Dan suggested
by heating it red hot, dropping it onto the shaft and dunking it into
oil. This worked perfect :







This weekend I decided it was time the T-86 came out. I put the car
up on rims for good ground clearance, drained out the oil, removed the
driveshaft, undid the shifter (though you can not remove it), took out
the speedo cable, and loosen all the bolts.







Here is the last picture of the T-86 in my Avanti :



The trans has to slide back over the X-member, and then once the input
shaft comes out of the bellhousing, the front drops down and the trans
comes out. The big empty hole :



Sitting on the garage floor ready to go to its new home.



Tom

Looks like things are moving right along.Thanks for the update

I measured the Driveshaft last night. The dimension I get is 45-7/8"
from universal to universal. Rear universal to yoke tip is 51-3/8". I
measured the transmissions, and the difference is the TKO is 3 to 3.5
inches shorter. So I need a longer driveshaft then I have. Roughly I
need a 48" to 49" inch long driveshaft as measured from universal to
universal. I am making the shifter adapter, which as Dan showed is a
piece of steel with 4 holes drilled 2 inches apart. This will set the
shifter back (toward the rear of the car) 2 inches. The hole spacing
is 7/8" from center to center and is a 3/8 diameter hole. I have the
speedometer cable to sort out (research shows a first Gen Mustang is
a possible match), and I need a shifter stick long enough to make it
through the floor to the correct height. Do you have a length Dan? A
part number would also be nice. I also found I need a boot for the
top of the Pro 5.0 shifter. In the Mustangs there is an intermediate
floor that seals the top of the shifter from the elements, the Stude
does not have this. I think I found a Hurst boot that might work. It
will be in addition to the boot you SEE on the floor.

Tom

Hey, what are the wheels off of? They look nice on your Avanti.

62 GT Hawk
84 vette
31 Ford Pickup

quote:Originally posted by sbca96I also found I need a boot for the top of the Pro 5.0 shifter. In the Mustangs there is an intermediate floor that seals the top of the shifter from the elements, the Stude does not have this. I think I found a Hurst boot that might work. It will be in addition to the boot you SEE on the floor.

Have you considered a stock late-model Mustang inner boot? They're readily available & cheap (I just picked one up on eBay for $13 + shipping). They're much flatter than most of the boots (like your Hurst??) that are meant to be on top. Obviously meant as a seal...

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

Gordy, thanks, they are '03/'04 Mustang Cobra replica rims, they are
made by a company in Canoga Park, Ca, by the name of AFS Wheels. I get
a LOT of compliments on the car after putting on those wheels. Even to
the point of people coming over with cell phone cameras when the car
is in parking lots.[8D] The factory Mustang Cobra wheel is 17 x 9
inches, which wont fit in the front, AFS makes a 8 inch wide version
that they removed the inch off the backspacing. On a factory Stude it
would require a 1/4 - 3/8 inch spacer to clear the upper control arm
on turns. Since I needed new brakes anyway, I designed my own setup
that puts the rotor between the wheel and hub like modern cars. That is
enough to give me .27" inches and with a .1" spacer it clears. The rear
fit without any issues, I believe the 9 inch would work on the Avanti
rear, since the extra inch is inboard next to the leaf spring.

More info on these threads :

Original SDC GT setup thread
https://www.foobar.com...?TOPIC_ID=3191

Install process GT to Cobra brakes
https://www.foobar.com...?TOPIC_ID=4957

Cobra brake breakin pictures
https://www.foobar.com...?TOPIC_ID=5279

First Article set from CNC
https://www.foobar.com...?TOPIC_ID=7594

First production set with engraving
https://www.foobar.com...TOPIC_ID=11193

Ernie, I think we are talking about the same boot, is this for the fox
body Mustangs (79-93)? A friend has one and was showing me the seal
that goes around the shifter. I dont see a way (other than adding a
whole panel) to add this, which is why I thought a boot on the shifter.



Tom

That is the boot I have. Tom you might want to wait until the trans is in the car to work on the shifter offsets. Your pro 5.0 shifter could be different. It is easy to work on in the car just pull the whole console shifter cover off.

Looks like things are coming along well. I would test the input shaft in the transmission before you put it back together. Also did you measure the of od the bearing you installed?



Dan Giblin
Cincinnati, OH

quote:Originally posted by sbca96


Ernie, I think we are talking about the same boot, is this for the fox body Mustangs (79-93)? A friend has one and was showing me the seal that goes around the shifter. I dont see a way (other than adding a whole panel) to add this, which is why I thought a boot on the shifter.

Here's a pic of what I'm thinking of (we might be thinking same thing):


These are just sandwiched underneath your regular boot & shouldn't require any new panels I wouldn't think...

May not be required if you're bolting your boot to the floor though. In the Fox Mustangs, as you're no doubt aware, the leatherette boot is usually mounted to the console from underneath which really drives their requirement to keep hot air out out of the cockpit - earlier Fox Mustangs they were bolted over the seal & seemed somewhat redundant to me...

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

Dan, you mean test the input shaft in the crank pilot bushing before
putting it into the transmission for good? Which bearing OD are you
refering too? What did I miss? I will check the bearing retainer in
the bell housing and make sure the input shaft extention fits into the
polit bearing prior to reassembling the trans. I still need to figure
out the speedo cable. What year/model cable did you use Dan? I have
calculated that I need an 18 tooth gear.

Ernie, thats even different still, the Fox Mustang seals around the
factory shifter body, not the shifter stub like the one you show. If
I was to use the one you show, it would still leave the top of the
shfter open to the elements under the car. I am concerned that debris
could be swept up under the car and into the trans, not the passenger
compartment. The Avanti has a boot that seals the floor at the console.

Tom

quote:Originally posted by gibbsr1
I would test the input shaft in the transmission before you put it back together. Also did you measure the of od the bearing you installed?

quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Ernie, thats even different still, the Fox Mustang seals around the factory shifter body, not the shifter stub like the one you show. If I was to use the one you show, it would still leave the top of the shfter open to the elements under the car. I am concerned that debris could be swept up under the car and into the trans, not the passenger compartment. The Avanti has a boot that seals the floor at the console.

Tom,

The floorboard seal shown is on, at least, '83-93 Fox cars (unsure of earlier pre T-5). It goes between the boot & the trans tunnel, but yes, it does seal around the stub & not the shifter tower. There is indeed a rubber seal built into the stock T5 shifter which must be what you're referring to - I've never seen them avail separately. Might check with the Ford dealer though...who knows?

That said, looking at the pic of your TKO shifter, you might be able to trim the inner part of the seal shown to accept a clamp of some sort. Alternatively, fabricate a ring/plate that uses the shifter bolts to sandwich the seal between the ring/plate & the shifter itself then trim the outside. Difficult to explain either well....


EDITED TO ADD: Thinking on this more, all of the aftermarket T5 shifters have no seal at all & are exposed just as you describe, Tom. Perhaps you're needlessly worrying?

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sum*****!

Thanks Ernie, I checked the Pro 5.0 website, its actually their design
thats the problem, the factory shifter seals as you describe, but the
Pro 5.0 requires the boot you posted be cut to fit around the outside
edge like I was mentioning. The Mustang I was looking at also has a
Pro 5.0 shifter, which explains why it was sealed around the shifter
base and not the shifter stick as is stock.



Take the main shift boot and cut out the center portion with a sharp blade. This way we can seal
it against the lower portion of the new shifter and it will fit no problem.
Apply a new bead of high temp silicone sealer. Apply on all the edges, then around the bolt hole
areas for the best seal.
Now place the new shifter carefully into place. MAKE SURE you put the shifter ball into the socket.
Then you can tighten down the bolts. Make them snug. Don't over tighten them.

Tom

With my wife going into surgery, I dont get to work on this as often
as I would like, but we needed to get into the attic, so the Avanti
had to get back on the ground.

Here is the new front seal installed into the bearing retainer :



The sealant applied and the front reassembled :



After trying to install the trans, it became obvious that with the big
X-member in the way, the extra mounting bosses needed to come off. The
first removed was the lowest torque arm boss (for 82-02 F-body), this
was done with a hack saw. Then I borrowed a sawsall and did the rest:









I clipped this off while the trans was up on the trans jack, but it
needed more to be removed.



I cut a notch here, but the whole mount has to come off.





















I also found that the shifter needed to be left off, and the opening
taped up to keep dirt out. Then I found I needed to remove one of the
shims I installed under the bellhousing on each side. The trans vent
was hitting the floor. Its tight, but it fits.

Tom

After getting the old T-86 out, the old throwout bearing had to be
removed, which I quickly noticed wasnt installed correctly. There is
a spring with two bent ends that hooks into the fork. They were not
hooked and the throwout bearing was free to move around.





I put a little rubber cap on the flare end, I didnt see a hose, or a
grease point on my bellhousing. Shop manual said its a truck feature.



Here it is installed CORRECTLY.





Here is the Giblin plate installed ... screws not torqued. The kit
includes red loctite, clean the threads and torque them to 65 ft lbs.





This picture lies, it was taken before I knew there was extra material
to remove. Unless you have a convertible or Avanti, this isnt needed.











Here is where the tailshaft ends up.





The installed Giblin plate and trans.



Fits pretty well.



"New" driveshaft, more on that coming up.



Tom